Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi everyone,
Over the years, this forum has grown into a special place—built on shared interests, mutual support, and thoughtful conversations.
It's been my pleasure to keep things running and create a space where we can all connect and learn.
Unfortunately, ad revenue has recently dropped below the cost of keeping the site up and running.
Hosting and maintenance carry real expenses, and I’ve been covering the shortfall—but it’s becoming unsustainable.

If you find value in this community and want to help ensure it stays online,
I’m kindly asking for your support through small monthly donations.
Even just a few dollars a month from a handful of members would make a big difference.

Please consider subscribing to our Patreon page and giving monthly.
This is the best way to assure the future of the OLF.

https://www.patreon.com/user?u=3700433&utm_medium=unknown&utm_source=join_link&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator&utm_content=copyLink

If you’d prefer to make a one-time donation, you can send it my PayPal at lance@kragenbrinkguitars.com.

There's no pressure—this forum will always strive to be a welcoming and inclusive space—
but if you’re in a position to chip in, your support would mean the world.

Thank you for being part of what makes this community great.

With appreciation,
LanceK

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Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Thanks Lance - I am just getting back to building after raising a couple of kids and the duties that entails. I will donate and hope to look forward to more helpful info. I hope everyone else does their part as well.

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It's this new idea from recent decades that everyone gets a participation award. - MUX

I've got your back Lance and thanks for bringing us the OLF it changed my life for the better!!!

I'm in too.

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Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

I'm in too, been around here too long not to

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I checked my Patreon account to make sure that my monthly sponsor payments are occurring; they are. I would encourage OLF members to do as Lance suggests and support the forum in this way.

Hey Lance

Thanks for keeping the forum going and I don't mind contributing because I enjoy the contact and the friendships developed here.

I'd suggest starting a paid annual membership option for those that want it and maybe a badge next to a members avatar to give some credit for making the membership contributions.

It seems like there have been 2-3 requests over about the past year and I and others have responded to all of them, sometimes with significant contributions. That's in addition to classified access fees.

It would be more assuring for me if you would give us some info on forum statistics. Things like ball park hosting costs, site maintenance costs if you hire that out, what comes in from sponsors, classifieds and donations or the like and or what you are shelling out personally. I'm totally fine with you getting reimbursement for your time as well.

Asking for donations kind of makes us all partners or share holders in a sense.

I want to help but contributions have reached the point where they are a bit over the "what's $50 a year, blow it off level".

Just some thoughts.

Thanks again
Brian

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Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

Done-

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Measure Twice,

Karl Borum

I think this forum could be better managed. If that takes money, so be it. I'll contribute. But I find it somewhat incongruent to be solicited for money when the moderator does virtually nothing with the site and refuses to respond to questions. I'll contribute when he allows me to view the Classifieds.

Gary Davis

Wow.

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Measure Twice,

Karl Borum

Surprised?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Lance is an absentee landlord. He wants the money, but he's loathe to put in the work.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I spent a little time checking out some other forums yesterday including Frets.net, MIMF, ANZLF, kit guitar forum and one other who's name is escaping me right now.

They were all dead as can be and in comparison the OLF is as active or more active as any of them.

Management style aside which I disagree with those upset with the hands off management style, you should have been on the MIMF when a certain moderator was there you like many would prefer it here.... But I digress. It occurs to me that I may not be the only one here who is a dotard....

Based on what I found yesterday forum participation is way down on all the lutherie forums I visited. This leads me to believe there are other things in play.

1). The golden age of lutherie where everyone is keen to come out of the shadows and share **** may be over.... I hope I am wrong here for those who come after us they deserve to have the same help we had and that is exactly why I am still here plus Lance is my friend.

2). Technology shift the Looth Group which is in our shop too I'm just off camera making fart noises... the Looth Group is alive and seemingly doing well. But it's a different technology with video, live, interactive, etc. Forums on the other hand were what bulletin boards that preceded them became when GUIs (graphical user interfaces) came into existence and character based computing went away.

3). I survey our clients and the last survey I did indicated that our largest client base is 55 and up males..... The smallest demographic that we see and we are in a town with over 50,000 college students are people 30 and under. So folks it might just be that guitars are not as cool to younger folks as they were to us.

Lastly in my continuing efforts to add value and suggest something constructive I once again say that with the hands off management style of Lance there is an opportunity here and some have already noticed this and seized on it. Brad started the sub-group off the OLf who does meet interactively employing more recent tech and taking this to a new level.

With this said no one is strictly enforcing anything here and it's always been this way. 20 years ago it was launched with this model and as the first and only official moderator the OLF ever had until Padma suggested using sperm as pore filler... amazingly for the most part most people have always been decent here with a very few exceptions.

So Lance has made a request. You do not have to contribute nor should you if you don't understand that this forum is not moderated and there are lots of administrative issues such as access to the classifieds and more. I don't know, I have not had personal contact with Lance for maybe five years when I set-up his new Les Paul and met his daughter who was a student in A2. I am in contact with Lance with delays on Facebook and if we need him he will step in usually in the background and usually not in a way that you guys would know. But I can get him if I need him and we live 30 miles apart.

I will say it is reality and the writing is on the wall Lance needs funding to keep the lights on and reality suggests especially with a forum owner who is no longer building guitars that if he has to dip into his personal funds I can see the lights going out here.

Maybe it's time too who knows. But I am going to stick around, continue to help you guys and Lance and if and when there are no longer enough people contributing and/or participating we will all part ways. My hope is that we all continue to be respectful of each other and there is never any need to tear anyone else down. My hope is that the OLF when and if it leaves this world does so as I would hope I do too and that is with a smile on my face and a song in my heart.

The OLF is what it is, it's always been largely as it is now and again there are opportunities in that if one cares to seek them.

Thanks

Surely you didn't get whapped by Deb?

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I don't "get" the Looth Group. It seems the killer app there is the Loothalong, where everybody has their laptops streaming into their shops while they work? Not what I'm looking for, I'm not in the shop nor online much during the day. And the live video presentation sessions, too - I tend to be at work. I like being able to search a forum for info on procedures or problems or material or whatever, when it's convenient to me. I'm not finding that functionality over there. Probably won't re-up my Patreon when it expires.

Chuck I feel the same way but Dave likes the Looth Group and the idea of it being on in the shop so he's the member, I'm not and I prefer the old school forum AND the archives too. There are former OLFers on the Looth Group such as my pal Evan Gluck and that part of being back in touch with them was great for me.

Maybe it's generational it might be for me. I really don't want anyone watching me work and scratch my ***** and pick my nose, etc but not in that order....

We've taken some of the suggestions of the Looth Group and I have pushed back at Dave telling him that how we have done things for a long time works very well for us. I have two examples now of things we did or adopted that were not good for us and we went back to what we were doing. Three examples actually. I don't want to get specific here because some of what I speak of was generously shared by some of the Looth Group members such as what polish they love. We tried it and it is not as good for us as what we were using and we went back.

We also have a 3D printer that we didn't need and for the most part it's a make-work tool that is novel so it catches the attention of tool junkies. But truth be told we have been banging out much of what it can do in the tool room in 5 minutes or less out of scrap wood. For other things a better use of the tech if you wanted to ever, ever justify even half the cost of the thing would be to share a machine regionally between several shops maybe.

The group is assembling a library of programs to spit out things of use to us but even still I don't see a 3D printer as justifiable in a lutherie shop unless maybe, someone is so bored with the work that they need a distraction. That's not me.

So my lack of interest in the Looth group is that a lot of what is being shared is for folks who want to break into and participate in the business and who may not have their own methods already. That's not us we've been doing this a long time, we proactively stay on the bleeding edge.... at times regretfully and my business partner is one hell of a bright guy who was born to Looth - he has a gift.

For some of the guys though as we know lutherie is a solitary profession and it can get kind of lonely in the shop in-between turning away Ov*tions and regluing bindings. The social contact would be for me the highlight.

That was always the case here too until the last couple years where it's not easy at times coming here I also would prefer moderation and owner participation and that is a large part of why pros don't participate here for the most part, it's risky. Someone here defames your business they take food off your table. But I digress.

She never got me but I know several people who she did get. Deb's way or the highway but you know something in-between some moderation but not the level of Deb I would welcome.

Deb kept us on topic. It was a friendly place. Still is, just not as active as it used to be.

Younger folks have been sucked into a all-phone-all-the-time vortex, and they have no interest in learning skills that have a learning curve and an experience timeline. No instant gratification, so no. And have developed few-to-none social skills that allow them to join with others who share interests. And what time is spent away from the phone is spent gaming.

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Peter Havriluk

Peter my friend I have a young man in my community of only 9,000 folks who is preparing to go to the Galloup School of Guitar building and repair. I'm going to have him and his dad over too to help them. This young man is preparing to dedicate his life to an old school trade and I give him a lot of credit for having interest in anything let alone lutherie.

Oh to be young again....

You know though as far as repair clients which is a great view of who's actually playing guitar these days it's not Gen Z. We rarely see them and that is concerning. We have 50,000+ Gen Z within a few miles of us with the University of Michigan, Eastern Michigan University, Washtenaw Community College all within 10 miles of our shop and we rarely see Gen Z.

Might be that guitar playing is not so cool anymore.

OTOH (on the other hand) more guitars were sold during the pandemic than at any other time. And we remain busier than ever so this is confusing at least to me.

Happy to contribute.

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Bob Holbert
Lyndoch, South Australia

Thanks Bob much appreciated and thanks to all who have contributed. My interest is keeping the OLF functioning for those who depend on it so that they have the same opportunities or better than my generation here had.

With this said, bump.

Good news. A caution to others who might bump into a mentoring situation, the mentee needs to be the source of effort and interest. The mentor backstops and advises when asked. The mentor cannot be more interested in the mentee's progress than the mentee.

I've spent decades of my recreational time on flying model aircraft and I'm dumbstruck by the religious zealotry of some folks to attract kids into their hobby. Exposure, sure. The rest is up to the wannabe participant.

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Peter Havriluk

Yep I agree Peter it has to be more important to the mentee.

Hey I did the RC airplane (and helicopter) thing too for a couple decades. I was an instructor at our flying field and I loved flying my Ultimate BiPlane and some of the other planes I built for aerobatics.

Took on helicopters too early on before the gyro was incorporated into them so I had to control the tail manually countering all the torque both positive and negative torque. But I learned to do some aerobatics with them and I also learned to be sure to switch my PCM-10 transmitter to "high rate" before doing a barrel roll with a chopper, the ground is not soft nor was it my one and only crash That cost me about $1,000 and shredded the chopper....

My best friend who was into RC too and an experienced 747 pilot bought an early turbine for RC use and we were building a jet to fly when he died. If you recall when a new Russian airliner Sukhoi that held about 100 passengers was on a demonstration flight to get orders and it hit a mountain in Jakarta Indonesia. I lost my best friend in the crash and he had a wife and kids too..... Anyway I digress.

So our paths have RC first and Lootherie later in them, cool.